Archive for September, 2004

Islam and Non-Muslims: A New Perspective

September 30, 2004
To PD Re: The Khilafah/Caliphate Name: OOSMAN 28/9/2004(19:15) GMT Reply

assalam alaikum,
This was a good post. I agree with you that Islam does not nurture mutiny. A bad ruler is preferable to rebellion, just because in period of calm there is much thinking and intellectual development compared to in period of civil war. Most of the great Muslim scholars wrote great books while they were imprioned by the rulers of Muslims. Today we see in Iraq that the US has unleased great fitna in the land by removing Saddam Hussein.
Read this please
Rebellion – by Shehzad Saleem

Shehzad Saleem (Excerpt from the book: Islam and Non-Muslims: A New Perspective)

Firstly, Muslims must cling to state authority in all circumstances. The Prophet (sws) has termed stated authority as this as الجماعة (al-Jama‘ah) and السلطان (al-Sultan) and directed every Muslim to in no way disassociate himself from it. And if anyone does so, it is as if he has left Islam and a Muslim who dies in this state is as if he died the death of Jahiliyyah (the days of the age of ignorance that prevailed in Arabia at the advent of Islam), when anarchy prevailed. He is reported to have said:

مَنْ رَأَى مِنْ أَمِيرِهِ شَيْئًا يَكْرَهُهُ فَلْيَصْبِرْ عَلَيْهِ فَإِنَّهُ مَنْ فَارَقَ الْجَمَاعَةَ شِبْرًا فَمَاتَ إِلَّا مَاتَ مِيتَةً جَاهِلِيَّةً. (بخاري: رقم 7054)
He who sees something despicable in his ruler should bear it, for he who even slightly disassociates himself from the state system and dies in this condition shall die the death of ignorance. (Bukhari: No. 7054)

Another text of this Hadith reads:

مَنْ كَرِهَ مِنْ أَمِيرِهِ شَيْئًا فَلْيَصْبِرْ فَإِنَّهُ مَنْ خَرَجَ مِنْ السُّلْطَانِ شِبْرًا مَاتَ مِيتَةً جَاهِلِيَّةً. (بخاري: رقم 7053)
He who sees something despicable in his ruler should bear it for he who even slightly disassociates himself from the obedience of sovereign crown and dies in this condition shall die the death of ignorance. (Bukhari: No. 7053)

In times of political anarchy and chaos, the Prophet has directed Muslims not only to refrain from participating in any activity against the state, but also to obey state authority with complete faithfulness and sincerity.

On one occasion, on these very grounds, he is reported to have told Hudhayfah (rta):

تلزم جماعة المسلمين و امامهم
([In such a state of chaos], remain attached to the state system and to the ruler of the Muslims.)3

Secondly, they should be law abiding citizens of their country. Whatever laws are enacted should be obeyed in letter and spirit by them and in no way should they evade the law. Any disagreement, personal dislike, communal support or religious reservation should never lead them to breech the law, except if some law is enacted in open disobedience to the Almighty. The Prophet (sws) is reported to have said:

عَلَيْكَ السَّمْعَ وَالطَّاعَةَ فِي عُسْرِكَ وَيُسْرِكَ وَمَنْشَطِكَ وَمَكْرَهِكَ وَأَثَرَةٍ عَلَيْكَ. (مسلم:رقم 1836)
It is your duty to listen and obey your rulers whether you are in difficulty or at ease, whether willingly or unwillingly and even when you do not receive what is your right. (Muslim: No. 1836)

عَلَى الْمَرْءِ الْمُسْلِمِ السَّمْعُ وَالطَّاعَةُ فِيمَا أَحَبَّ وَكَرِهَ إِلَّا أَنْ يُؤْمَرَ بِمَعْصِيَةٍ فَإِنْ أُمِرَ بِمَعْصِيَةٍ فَلَا سَمْعَ وَلَا طَاعَةَ. (مسلم: رقم 1839)

Whether they like it or not, it is obligatory on the faithful to listen and to obey their rulers except when they be ordered to commit a sin. If they are ordered so, they should neither listen nor obey. (Muslim: No. 1839)

اسْمَعُوا وَأَطِيعُوا وَإِنْ اسْتُعْمِلَ عَلَيْكُمْ عَبْدٌ حَبَشِيٌّ كَأَنَّ رَأْسَهُ زَبِيبَةٌ. (بخاري: رقم 7142)
Listen and obey even if a negro slave whose head is like a raisin is made your ruler. (Bukhari: No. 7142)

This directive of obeying those in authority obviously relates to Muslim rulers only. This is indicated by the word منكم (Minkum: among you) which qualifies the word اولو الامر (U%lu’l-‘Amr: those in authority) in 4:59, the verse under discussion. The Prophet (sws) while explaining this has stated that once a ruler does not fulfill the conditions stated in the Qur’an that make him a Muslim, he is not to be obeyed.

’Ubadah Ibn Samit reports:
دَعَانَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَبَايَعْنَاهُ فَكَانَ فِيمَا أَخَذَ عَلَيْنَا أَنْ بَايَعَنَا عَلَى السَّمْعِ وَالطَّاعَةِ فِي مَنْشَطِنَا وَمَكْرَهِنَا وَعُسْرِنَا وَيُسْرِنَا وَأَثَرَةٍ عَلَيْنَا وَأَنْ لَا نُنَازِعَ الْأَمْرَ أَهْلَهُ قَالَ إِلَّا أَنْ تَرَوْا كُفْرًا بَوَاحًا عِنْدَكُمْ مِنْ اللَّهِ فِيهِ بُرْهَانٌ. (مسلم: رقم 1709)
The Prophet called us to pledge allegiance to him which we did. We had been asked to pledge to the following: We shall listen and obey whether willingly or unwillingly whether we are in difficulty or at ease, and even when we do not receive what is your right and that we shall not contest the authority of our rulers.
The Prophet of God said:
You can only refuse their submission if you witness outright Kufr in any matter from them, in which you have a clear evidence from God. (Muslim: No. 1709)

Similarly, some Ahadith say:

سَتَكُونُ أُمَرَاءُ فَتَعْرِفُونَ وَتُنْكِرُونَ فَمَنْ عَرَفَ بَرِئَ وَمَنْ أَنْكَرَ سَلِمَ وَلَكِنْ مَنْ رَضِيَ وَتَابَعَ قَالُوا أَفَلَا نُقَاتِلُهُمْ قَالَ لَا مَا صَلَّوْا. (مسلم: رقم
Soon you will find people ruling you some of whose habits you would like and others you would dislike. He who disliked their bad habits has no blame on him and he who refuted them also remained safe. However, he who was pleased with them and followed them would be called to account.
The Companions asked: Should not then we wage a war against them. The Prophet (sws) replied:
No as long as they keep offering the prayer. (Muslim: No. 1854)

َشِرَارُ أَئِمَّتِكُمْ الَّذِينَ تُبْغِضُونَهُمْ وَيُبْغِضُونَكُمْ وَتَلْعَنُونَهُمْ وَيَلْعَنُونَكُمْ قِيلَ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ أَفَلَا نُنَابِذُهُمْ بِالسَّيْفِ فَقَالَ لَا مَا أَقَامُوا فِيكُمْ الصَّلَاةَ (مسلم: رقم
The worst of your rulers are those whom you hate and who hate you; you curse them and they curse you.
It was asked: O Prophet of Allah, should we not lift arms against them. The Prophet (sws) replied:
No, as long as they establish the prayer among you. (Muslim: No. 1855)

However, even in these circumstances, no one Muslim citizen has been given the permission to revolt against the government unless he has the backing of a clear majority behind him. The reason for this is that if the majority does not support him then such a revolt would not be against the government; on the contrary, it would be against other Muslim citizens, which according to the Shari‘ah is فساد فى الارض (Fasad fil-Ard: Spreading disorder in the society) — an offence punishable by death.

The Prophet (sws) is reported to have said:
مَنْ أَتَاكُمْ وَأَمْرُكُمْ جَمِيعٌ عَلَى رَجُلٍ وَاحِدٍ يُرِيدُ أَنْ يَشُقَّ عَصَاكُمْ أَوْ يُفَرِّقَ جَمَاعَتَكُمْ فَاقْتُلُوهُ. (مسلم: رقم 1852)
You are organized under the rule of a person and someone tries to break your collectivity apart or disrupt your government, kill him. (Muslim: No. 1852)

Moreover, it should also remain clear that if this revolt takes the shape of an armed uprising, then is should be subject to all the conditions of Jihad imposed by the Shari’ah. Consequently, no one is allowed to take up arms in rebellion against the government unless he fulfills these conditions.

3. Muslim: No. 1847

sorry but I dont agree with a part of it
Re: To PD Name: Kansaa 29/9/2004(1:50) GMT Reply

The ruler that the Ahadith were talking about were Muslim rulers who applied Islamic Shariah as a base. They are rulers who do not spread destruction -as the writer says fasaad fi Alard.

Saddam has been strictly anti Islamic thru out his rule, he has never wavered in his battle against the religious section of the public, and he never waned in his battle against them, his mumblings into the Quraan during his trial fool no one. He was a strict Baathist and this is equivalent to anti Muslim- does anyone doubt this????

can anyone???

How many Iraqi Muslim scholars have found iraq no longer a haven as any patriotic land should be? How many have sought refuge from his cruel dictatorship? and how many have perished in his dungeons? He never upheld Islam. As such he had and has and would never have wilaaya from Muslims.

So it is not true that you say, the removal of Saddam caused fitna.

Not so, the fitna is caused by the Americans themselves and the remnants of the criminal, Saddamian police and whatever they have salvaged to fight against the people. what government are they trying to force upon the people? what right do they have to force any? who are they but a rabble of pirates causing fitna and chaos to get as much as they can of the booty-it is they are the culprits and it is they are to blame for any fitna, you think the Iraqis aren’t capable of creating their own government and stablising their own country? they have the ability and the man power-they aren’t a band of illiterates you are talking about some very intelligent people and if the Americans would take a hike to hell or back to their own lands you would find that things aren’t in the least bit chaotic.

BUT pls note what would happen would be that the greatest Saddamian opposition would be in power and that my brother is the religious opposition-not you must realise the sort of government that America can allow is it?



September 26, 2004
to pd Re: To PD – Religious & Political Freedom Name: Hallowell 26/9/2004(3:32) GMT Reply

As far as the girl being forced to quit, I don’t think she was treated fairly. In my view she should wear whatever she wants. Her religious beliefs have nothing to do with playing a game. Her views, whatever they may be, on a kaliphate-like government had no impact on the game either.

I did attempt to change the subject of your thread, but I did so for a reason. I do not believe that this incident is very important in the grand scheme of things. I have faith that my fellow citizens are tolerant and learning every day to be more tolerant of different people.

If the “aspirations” of western Muslims are to establish some form of the kaliphate and abolish current Western governments then I think that we will have more serious problems than girls being forced to quit basketball teams.

The fact that Muslims organizations, activists, and individuals refuse to discuss this topic or become hyper-defensive when the issue is brought up by non-Muslims makes me weary of the future. Maybe the issue is too complex for most people. I don’t know.

I do not pretend to speak for Muslims or for the opinions of individual Muslims, but I with my own eyes I have seen several Western Muslims on here expressly state their allegience does not lie with the Western countries they currently reside in.

I have seen Muslims on the Internet and on this discussion board, calling for violent revolution within Western countries with the purpose of establishing an Islamic State.

I don’t have any answers. But I know it is important that Westerners and Muslims talk about this issue.


To PD Religious & Political Freedom

my answer

Hallowell, this post of yours is better.

You are now talking like the american you should be. As long as you do not succumb to prejudice, you will be all right. We can take it from there.


You have issues with the Caliphate! You have seen Muslims advocating violent overthrow of Western governments on this board?

I think occassionally I have seen a post from a Western Muslim in anger, but I do not recall a persistent theme of establishing the Caliphate in the West, by violent means. It has been more a response when some non-Muslim has been extraordinarily belligerant.

As for Western Muslim organisations threatening violence in the West, I have heard of only one, headed by Bakri in the UK, although I haven’t bothered to check his views. To me he appears as a fringe personality, and there are so many opinions among Muslims that I do not want to bother with every one, although since he has received publicity in the West, I should look him up. If he advocates violence in the West, he is either a nut, or an agent provocateur, else how do you explain the tolerance of the British government towards him, when very mild Muslims have received attention from the British agencies.

And in North America, I know of no such organisation.

If you have any links, please provide them.

Let me repeat: I know of no organisation which wants to establish the Caliphate by force in the West, or in Russia or China or India. They are not stupid that they would want to impose rule over a majority of those who are unwilling.


It is in the Muslim majority areas, which experienced colonisation, that the Caliphate will be established. Force there may be considered only as a reaction to the elite itself using force to set aside the will of the majority, which has been the experience of Muslims for a long time.

In fact, force is out of the question altogether. However, Muslim thinkers have analysed the possibility that the elite may not let go of power, and will use force to kill off the attempts to establish the Caliphate. In that scenario, they have considered the chances of an uprising becoming necessary, like they have seen in popular revolutions.

What Muslims see is that whenever thay have tried to establish local Islamic rule, they have been thwarted by the agents of the West, aided by the West.

Turkey had consistently denied rule by Islamic parties, even though they won in elections. It is only recently, and that too when the Islamic party diluted its Islamic manifesto, that it was allowed to form a government. And we see that pressure to back down on its Islamic agenda is being brought to bear, and the Turkish government of the Islamic Party continues to back down.

In Algeria, the elections were cancelled by the military, and the Muslims were persecuted. It is now known that the massacres were actually carried out by State Security. And the Algerian government was aided by the West.

This has been the Muslim experience. Their attempts to play by the rules have been thwarted by the local elite, which has received support from the West.

You see the Caliphate degenerated into empire/kingdom, but this degeneration was accepted to maintain unity within the Ummah. When the Caliphate was abolished, Muslims throughout the world felt the pain, and tried to have it retained, for they are one Ummah. It is possible to have a high degree of local autonomy within the Caliphate, but the establishment of a Caliphate is considered a central requirement of our faith. We want a central authority to which all local Muslim rulers would be answerable, and which would also be subject to the rule of law, for the ruling elites have lifted themselves above the law.

Over the years of colonisation, Muslim thinkers came up with many analyses of why the decline has occurred, and how to overcome it. Some saw Western-style education as the answer. Some simply copied the West in dress and manners. Eventually with the departure of the colonial powers, power came in the hands of those with this type of education, but the Muslim experience was by and large of becoming a neo-colony, whether of the West, or the now defunct Soviet Empire.

Some thinkers had come up that this subjugation was due to the lack of adherence to the Shariah. After the abolition of the Caliphate, they thought the continued subjugation was linked to this. There were moves then to establish the Shariah in a country, and other moves to educate the Muslims intelligentsia and the masses to re-establish the Caliphate, not by some ruler calling himself the Khalifa, but by a voluntary coming together of the countries which have more or less artificial boundaries.

You see the colonial powers saw to it that the bureaucracy was simply clerical in nature, and the elite was trained to look upon its former masters as still its master. It is for this reason that the feudal structure remains in place. The highest in the land have been known to bow to the Queen and declare that they still consider themselves as subjects of Her Majesty. In this scenario, the only independent thinking came from the religious scholars.

However, some scholars had frozen the application of Ijtihad, for they feared splitting further into sects and internecine wars. In the colonial times, some scholars held on to what they already knew, as they felt the faith was under threat from the colonial masters. The Taleban were a product of that school of thought, further subdivided to a thinking peculiar to the Afghans. And they did not establish a Caliphate. Instead they established an Emirate – you have plenty of the pro-West variety, and you are quite comfortable with them.

There was further analysis and refinement of analysis, and what is aspired to is a “rightly-guided Caliphate”, i.e. a leadership which acts according to the Quran and the Sunnah as was during the time of the first four Caliphs. Sch a Caliphate would be just, righteous and enlightened.

However the debate within the Muslims is far from over. I installed a google web bar, which allows for search within the site, and there was a wealth of articles on IoL site alone. I tried the IoL search on the Discussion Forum with “Caliphate” and “Khilafa” as search strings in the Message text field, and again there were fifteen pages in each search. I do not have the time to go through them. Also my attitude is to look at the concepts, and if they look right, to leave further development to the specialists.

Having emerged from direct colonial rule in many areas, Muslims have still the feudal, ethnic, sectarian and cultural prejudices and divisions to overcome, and the mental servitude of the elite to foreign concepts and foreign masters. And it does not help that in some areas of the world direct colonial rule still obtains, where the Muslims have had to take up arms.

We do not want to establish the Shariah or the Caliphate by force, either in the East or the West. The emphasis is on Dawah – the peaceful call to the faith. However, since persecution and subjugation still continue in some regions even in this 21st century, local armed resistance is taking place, to which Muslims from other lands may extend help.

One day, the Caliphate will be established. It will be done in areas and populations that want it. Those who see this struggle for what it is – a democratic liberation movement, will be embraced. Those who side with the persecutors, will be shunned.

I think if the US sides with fairness and justice, it will be helping to bring about a peaceful and progressing world. I think if instead of looking at the Caliphate as an adversary, you look upon it as a parallel experiment in governance by a people who want to rule themselves in accordance with their analysis and understanding of the world, you will find plenty of points of convergence, and where we diverge, there need not be a violent conflict.


Now the question of allegiance and the rule of law:

In fact, Islam looks for rule of law, even if the law enforcers fall far short of the ideal. Some sort of order is preferable to anarchy.

It is when there is dialogue that people come to see that Islam brings peace, and is the way of nature, so a peaceful atmosphere is what Islam desires most.

Living in perpetual conflict with one’s neigbors won’t bring this dialogue. It won’t let one exercise one’s talents in peaceful pursuits, so allegiance to where one lives, and to one’s community are paramount, but there are times when one’s perception of what is in the interest of the community (and the state), are in conflict with the perceptions of others (more specifically the government). It is recognised that people may take a stand against that of their governments, or even against that of majorities, if their conscience dictates so.

We have seen US soldiers deserting the army, and taking refuge in Canada, during the VietNam war. Many in the US did not see them as traitors.

We are beginning to see similar cases from the Iraq war. Objectors to the Iraq war are not necessarily traitors to the US.

I do not regard a government’s stand as always in the interest of the State or a people. There may be instances when one may have to stand up and refuse the government’s diktats.

So, you can think of situations when Muslims (and non-Muslims) may find the policies of their Western governments so much against their conscience, that they may resort to this solution – refusing to carry out the wishes of the government on such issues. It does not mean they will declare war on their next-door neighbors, and it does not mean that they will be traitors.

I wouldn’t call that refusal treachery.

If you look at Rwanda, the conversion to Islam has ben fantastic after the genocidal war. Why? because the persecuted were given sanctuary and help by Muslims, even by those Muslims belonging to the opponent tribe. Similar is the case in Sri Lanka. The Tamil Muslims do not participate in or support the Tigers’ atrocities, despite sharing a common language and ethnicity.

Ummah Forum thread 29216

timbuktu’s guestbook

September 17, 2004
Update – problem solved
I was given some advice by jannah of, and now the links appear at the bottom of every post 🙂 You could also use the links in this post.
This is what Jannah said:
Wa ‘Alaikum Assalaam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh try to put that code they gave you right before:
!– End #comments —
there is a less than sign before the exclamation sign !, and a greater than sign after the last two dashes —
move it around in the code and see where it shows up on your page. Then you can decide on the best place to put it and stick it there
so, immediate problem solved.

The problem:
I acquired a guestbook, but forgot to copy the HTML code. In any case I wouldn’t have known where to paste the copied code. So the funny thing is I have a guestbook, but no link to it on my pages. My solution: please click on the links below, and sign. 🙂

OK, now I found the code, which for my guestbook would be:

[View timbuktu’s Guestbook]

“http:/x/” View timbuktu’s Guestbook
[Sign timbuktu’s Guestbook]

“http:/x/” Sign timbuktu’s Guestbook

In the above, http:/x/ are to be replaced with http://

Now, what files do I have to copy so that all is not lost if I make a mistake? And please tell me where to paste the HTML code. Then I too can have a link to my guestbook on the main page.

Thanks – request for help

September 16, 2004
As-Salamu alaykum

Dear respected Muslim

As you know, the service we provide at is entirely free of any charge or obligation from our visitors. Unfortunately, however, we cannot continue to develop and expand the site without your help. Some of the unique projects we are eager to complete in the very near future include publishing first-time online translations of the Qur’an. For example,

Urdu – currently available online only through PC-modifying plug-in applications, or non-searchable, bandwidth-sapping image files. A user-friendly, searchable online Urdu Qur’an engine would potentially serve the 200 million plus Urdu literate Muslims of South Asia and beyond.

Russian – In addition to the four Russian translations we currently host, we want to offer Sablukov’s translation. This authoritative, very hard to come by, 19th century work was the first known Qur’an translation from Arabic to Russian. Russian is the lingua franca of many tens of millions of Muslims in the former Soviet Union from the borders of China to Chechnia.

Georgian – as far we know, there is no existing translation of the Qur’an in this language – not even in manuscript form. The need for a “Georgian” Qur’an is most pressing considering that perhaps a third of the population professes Islam.

In addition to translations, we also require assistance to progress with the multimedia aspect of In terms of providing an innovative, never-before-seen Qur’an recitation experience, we know what we want to do and how to do it, but lack the resources to implement our ideas. We therefore humbly ask that you help us in Allah’s Cause in the following ways:

1. Promote “in order that they may hear the Word of Allah” (Qur’an, 9:6) Bring more users to through reccomendationsto friends, forums and other sites, and via submissions to search engines and website directories.
“So unto this (Qur’an and religion of Islam) then invite and stand firm” (Qur’an, 42:15)

2. Donate to “and spend in charity out of the sustenance We have given” (Quran, 14:31) We now accept donations online in various currencies (go to the “contribute” link at the bottom of page:

“And the likeness of those who spend their wealth insearch of Allah’s pleasure and for the strengtheningof their souls, is as the likeness of a garden on ahill-top. If abundant rain falls upon it, it yields up twice its normal crop; and if no heavy rain falls upon it, it is watered by a light shower. Allah sees well all that you do.” (Qur’an, 2:265)

3. Pray for us, for “Verily, I (Allah) am indeed near. I respond to the prayers of the supplicant when he calls on Me. So let them obey Me and believe in Me, so that they may be led aright.” (Qur’an, 2:186)

Ask Allah to bless all our efforts with the conviction that, as Allah’s Messenger (sal-Allaahu ‘alayhi wasallam) said, “There is no believing servant who supplicates for his brother in his absence except that the Angels say: The same be for you too.” (Saheeh Muslim)

“So their Lord accepted of them (their supplicationand answered),
‘Never will I allow to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female.’” (Qur’an, 3:195)

And heavenly salutations of peace be upon His Noble Slave and Messenger, Muhammad, his family, Companions, and all those who follow them in righteousness until the Last Day.

Webmaster –

Links: Afghanistan, Iraq and the US

September 15, 2004
This will be a thread, with comments containing links to articles on these, with some descriptions. The links are added here as well.
Link 001: Linda S. Heard: Innocents are paying the price in Iraq Gulf News 14-09-2004